/gov/ - Governance

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People can govern themselves and require no masters.
Replies: >>964
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> People can govern themselves
Ummm… see the picture…
Replies: >>691 >>693
>>690
ungovernable by others, 'tis implied
Replies: >>692
>>691
Maybe you are governable, but we sure aren't.
Discipline is a self-slavery.
Replies: >>704
>>690
They hand out these banners at demonstrations. The people holding it were just following instructions. Something to consider.
Replies: >>694
>>693
Do they ship into Europe? I'd like one but I can't travel because of the pandemic.
Some people prefer to be governed. Heirarchies arise from chaos just as easily as freedom and/or equality.
Replies: >>1977
Chaos is both Order and Disorder.
To prefer one over another is to embrace greyface.
Replies: >>697
>>696
Retard is both autist and idiot
Replies: >>698 >>699 >>989
>>697
???
it's literally in the principia
Replies: >>700
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>>697
As it should be.
>>698
>he believed the stuff written in the principia
You've obviously never read the Principia!
>>692
Discipline inflicted by one-self is probably okay.
Self-mastery through self-slavery.
Replies: >>705
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>>704
There is no such thing as self-discipline. If you want to do something for yourself, you don't have to obey yourself as you already will it. What people wrongly call self-discipline is not about obeying yourself but sacrificing your will to please some alien ideal, that is obedience to the spirit that has possessed your mind, it is— spook-discipline.
Replies: >>706 >>992
>>705
Dammit, Maxine!
the "unfortunate" "truth" is that most people don't like being ungoverned and much prefer to not make decisions for themselves.
Replies: >>713
>>708
I believe this number could be reduced through proper education, but government has a vested interest in establishing "education" systems that suppress independent thought and encourage obedience.
Replies: >>714
>>713
survival is easier if you're part of a tribe.
Replies: >>715
>>714
yeah but expanding the notion of "tribe" until it includes millions of people fundamentally changes the meaning of the word.

The natural size of a tribe appears to be 1-10 thousand people. Once you pass that you're not really dealing with people who you share even the most tenuous personal connection to, you just happen to live in the same country.
Replies: >>716
>>715
Oh I agree, but you can't thrive if you have to do everthing yourself, is what i'm saying.
Ideally countries would be made up of economical units that could work independently. Territories that can function on their own without outside help.
cities can't function without rural farms, and rural farms can't thrive without cities.
Replies: >>717
>>716
Your lungs cannot function without your heart, you should fire your engineer.
Replies: >>719
>>717
i didn't know i was engineered
Replies: >>720
>>719
it's those damn germans at it again
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That's what they wanted you to think.

I am the engineer.

But alas, I am stuck in a letterbox.
Replies: >>779 >>1992
>>721
can we help?
Replies: >>780
>>779
If we help them out now they will surely find themselves in another letterbox in no time.
Replies: >>782
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>>780
we can still help!
Replies: >>1982
People can not govern themselves nor should they be governed.
>>689
let the world be your guru
Why have just anarchy when you can also have anotherarchy?
Replies: >>979
>>965
Kill the greedy! One archy per person!
Replies: >>982
>>979
Don't be ridiculous, there's plenty to go around. In our family the limit is 12 and we are doing fiiine.
>>697
Go away Mr Greyface, we don't take kindly to your types in here
Replies: >>990
>>989
It's ok, theyre gone.
No, they can't.
>>705

Having a goal and working consequently towards it = disciplined, not being able to do that = undisciplined
Replies: >>993 >>996
>>992
my goal is to blow up the whole goddamn solar system so im disciplined for sitting around for waiting for the tech to emerge to be able to do that.
Replies: >>994
>>993
theres a reason why we dont launch our garbage directly at the sun and it has scientists absolutly worried
Replies: >>995
>>994
I'm intrigued. Please tell me more.
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>>992
Actually it is
> control gained by enforcing obedience or order
Anarchy typically forgets about one of the worst and cruellest hierarchies+authorities we ever face, i.e. that of the family. And worst of all, the family structure endlessly copies itself generation after generation, so it requires organisation to tackle. I believe this makes government necessary.

See:
https://trueleft.createaforum.com/
Replies: >>998 >>999 >>1004
>>997
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/humanaesfera-against-the-new-and-old-familism-down-with-the-family
Replies: >>999
>>997
>>998
If Discordianism is a cult then you really don't need to promote anymore ideas against the nuclear family. I think that's pretty much built-in into the whole "cult" package.
That being said, I doubt everyone here would agree with you or OP, considering order is needed to keep disorder in check.
Replies: >>1002
>worst and cruellest hierarchies+authorities we ever face
yeah, that we there is a wee bit generalized for my tastes
>>999
[CONTENT WARNING: REVISIONISM]

I red the text and i think the point was more against ALL family structures, like cultfamilies or whatever. Needless to say i find the idea a bit stupid especially if the abolition of family needs to be supervised by a state. All the reasons given why families are bad were inherently tied to capitalism, and yea I get it, even if capitalism is gone old structures will carry over bad habits to new systems. It's like saying we should abolish science cuz, well, look at it.

Family these days isnt about blood relations, its more about just relations. People you are closest to are the family. Taking that away for some global proletarian identification could have it's benefits but it isnt in any way pragmatic.

Then again wtf i know.
Replies: >>1004
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>family
It's been a while since I flipped through the ol' anarchist cookbook, but was there an entry in there that addressed gestating a fetus in a box?
>>997
have to agree with >>1002 . Family provides a sense of place that is deeply needed by humans. People without any kind of family (disowned, oprhaned, etc) are some of the most fucked up people mentally, even worse than people with abusive families.
Replies: >>1005 >>1012 >>1022
>>1004
1002 here just to add biological families should fuck off and every baby should be confiscated straight outta vag and given to a gay couple or something.
Replies: >>1006
>>1005
jesus christ what's wrong with you
i'm all for raising children in cults but fags is a bridge too far. poor kids
Replies: >>1007
>>1006
cry more normie. It has been proven that kids without a proper bottom role model in the family will have developemental issues.
Replies: >>1008
>>1007
the bottom role model is the mother
the top role model is the father
that's how it's always been
Replies: >>1009
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>>1008
It hasn't always been like that, and even if it was, how fucking boring it would be to keep going in the exactly same way till the eternity? Stuff isnt exactly stable u kno?
Replies: >>1010 >>1020
>>1009
Leaving a kid with a couple of fags is probably the worst thing you can do
plus it's the most boring predictable outcome.
Replies: >>1011 >>1013
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>>1010
I've smoked since I was 7 and I'm fine.
>>1004
Name an orphan-raised mass shooter.
Name a mass shooter with dykefag parents.
Replies: >>1019 >>1022
>>1010
Having actually met people raised by two men, they're pretty normal. I mean in theory being raised by two red heads is crazy too but surprisingly it doesn't fuck people up either.
Also, reminder that is you have two brothers they don't count as your family because you don't have a sister unless you are a girl with titties
Replies: >>1014
>>1013
i've never known anyone like that, but i once met a family where both husband and wife were adopted as children and never knew their birth parents. their family tree was less like a tree and more like a rhizome or a fungal spore.
Replies: >>1017
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>>1014
As long as the family tree doesn't enter the Habsburg Zone, you're alright.
Replies: >>1022
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>>1012
Many of these men are orphans or single parents or worse upbringing.
Replies: >>1021 >>1022
>>1009
Mother Earth and Father Sky, violate the Earth with Sky if one will with the violence of a volcano, but the ashes will not let through the light, and eventually thereafter, the sky will fall.
>>1019
>no answer to extremely simple question
>better post an irrelevant le pol infographic
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Replies: >>1022
>>1017
heh, they would joke about that and tease their older children with such a possibility from time to time

>>1004
>>1012
>>1019
>>1021
not the infographic posting anon, unless you consider shitposting screenshots from monty python movies to be infographics, but… i think that is a fair answer tbh and whether le /pol/ would sign off on such an infographic or not should have no baring. modern mass killers, who have gotten media exposure, are a small sample set of all the carnage that has unfolded throughout human history and, considering that such individuals are extreme statistical outliers, insinuating that a "traditional family" structure has anything to do with the actions they chose, or that a "non-traditional family" structure would mitigate the possibility of such things happening seems like an absurd claim to make.
(to be continued)
(continued)
now, i couldn't care less what /pol/, righty or lefty, or any other ideological hive mind has to say about this, but… what is the kill count of orphaned child soldiers in africa? what was the kill count of the more authoritarian and casually violent of native american nations? what was the kill count of mongol warriors during the reign of the khans? do those three questions seem /pol/ tier? well then, what was the kill count of white partisans of battles and gorilla warfare that took place during the era of the roman empire on the european continent? what sort of families did those individuals come from? how many soldiers in modern era, who have come from all sorts of backgrounds, have kill counts that rival those of past generations and the most publicized spree killers? what of it that these individuals opportunistically used hot wars of aggression as an excuse to take the actions they took rather then whatever subjective existential motivations the psycho killers may have claimed? any grouping of human beings that you could be bothered to group together have plenty of blood on their hands. such is the frailty of the human heart.
(to be continued)
(continued)
it seems terribly obvious that, absent the influence of a large scale political context, a child who is lovingly raised by their mother and father, the two individuals who would have the closest embodied connection to them, would tend to be less likely to kill another, as an act of aggression, then someone raised without such love and attention. yes, in some circumstances, such love and attention are not given by their birth parents directly, but by the best efforts of other blood relatives, or, if in worst case orphaned, even that of perfect strangers from their extended community who do what they can. and there will be, of course, those who despite best efforts, whatever they may be, are traumatized by external factors and lash out in murderous rage. from what i have seen of this world, the greatest risk factor for motivating mass violence and murder, is any organizational structure that is so large that it becomes impersonal and disembodied. these are my thoughts on this matter in general and in regards to anarchism.
Replies: >>1025
>>1024
That made me think…

It's true that family  biological or not, is at the moment the only group intimate enough to potentially have a stake at individual well being. On the other hand isn't that caused by existing inhumane societal structures. Theres something very deeply human about the hate of the stranger for example manifested by being mean in the internet, but how much of that is societal pressure to compete and push other people down to have a slightly better standing in the rat race? Thoughts about abolishing the family cause a kneejerk reaction since we cannot imagine a world where growing up without a family on the mercy of strangers kindness isn't just outright horribe. At best family just provides protection from other families, and even then it tends to be inwardly destructive system, again because of the societal pressures present. What I'm getting at is that the concept of family as is is very much tied to it's enviroment, the society, and after big societal change we probably cannot have same kind of families anymore as it has been seen in all the previous shifts. Any kind of family endorsed by current system can't be something working against it's goals so to reimagine a different world you need to shed all the assumptions about what family is  and why it exists.
Replies: >>1026
If it weren't for my family I probably would have committed suicide by now.
>>1025
>At best family just provides protection from other families, and even then it tends to be inwardly destructive system, again because of the societal pressures present.
I don't think this is true. For instance, most people would be unwilling to let someone live with them rent-free unless they are "like family". This isn't *protection* from other families, this is just a kindness that most people are unwilling to extend to all but the people closest to them.
>so to reimagine a different world you need to shed all the assumptions about what family is  and why it exists.
So you have to undefine a word? What's the point of that?
I don't get why so many anarchists have this weird obsession with modifying all of human existence to match a utopian goal. It's never going to happen, for one, and for another it's irrelevant to anarchism.
Replies: >>1027
>>1026
You got it backwards. The article does not argue that families have to be abolished to match their utopian goals, but that reaching their utopian goals will inevitably abolish families. Why? Take a good look at your example. In a society where private property has been abolished, everyone will live rent-free somewhere. Your little fantasy scenario simply won't make any sense anymore.

This is the problem with anarchists and with people who can use their brains in general. By studying history they have noticed that the family, which is assumed by the unthinking to be an unchanging constant, actually changed a lot during the centuries of human society, taking on various form, some of which can hardly be called a family, and keeps changing as society does. Something that most posters in this thread failed to understand.

As a fun fact, around 80% of child sexual abuse in the USA is committed by the parents of the children. Keep this statistic in mind while you argue for the child's enslavement to their parents.
Replies: >>1028 >>1031 >>1032
>>1027
This is all slightly off the top of my head, but nonetheless…
To quote…
>but that reaching their utopian goals will inevitably abolish families
>their utopian goals
>their
Who exactly are you talking about and speaking for here?
I don't understand this definition of anarchism. To me, this seems very dogmatic and not anarchistic at all. Humor me here. If anarchism as you define it reaches a near utopian goal of some sort and a small band of dissidents say, "That's fine and well for you anarcho-universalists, but we dissidents would prefer to value blood relations over this universalist utopian model and have a little utopia of our own." How would you then label these dissidents?
>In a society where private property has been abolished
Abolished? Abolished by whom? Again, this does not sound anarchistic to me at all. Humor me again. If anarchism, as you define it, somehow abolishes the notion of private property and a small band of dissidents say, "Good on you, but, you know what, we prefer to have some private property and have a little utopia of our own. We'll be over here experimenting with private property to some extent and we promise that we wont hassle or aggress against you anarcho-universalists" How would you label these dissidents?
Do you see what I am getting at here? It would seem that, anarchism, as you define it, has some preconceived notion of how individuals must practice anarchism and that it then ceases to become anarchistic. It seems only reasonable that people might want to experiment with different models of organization by their own free accord. What would dissidents be labeled as? Anarcho-anarchists? Non-anarchic-chaoticists? The more I hear about this form of anarchism, the more it strikes me as an impersonal control system of sorts and as such, not anarchistic, and as dangerous as any other impersonal structures of control.
Replies: >>1029
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>>1028
"Their" there obviously refers to the authors of the article that we are discussing. Are you not paying attention?

There are plenty of variants of anarchism and everyone is free to experiment with whatever they like, but there are a few things that you have to understand. People don't just organize themselves into societies randomly. You could try to establish a society based on "blood relations" or any other delusions, but in an anarchist society don't expect it to last or became mainstream. It just does not make sense, and while some people might fancy the rituals around it and participate somewhat ironically, most people simply won't bother. This is not a prescription, but a prediction.

The second issue, however, is non-negotiable. Otherwise the word "anarchism" would truly lose any meaning about would become just a general insult. You cannot "experiment" with private property and claim to be an anarchist. It is not an accident that the first person who willingly called themselves an anarchist did so in a book whose topic was the nature of private property and the necessity of its abolition. An anarchist society with private property would be as absurd as one with slavery. There cannot be any definition of anarchism that does not include the abolition of private property.

Feel free to complain that anarchists are implementing an impersonal control system of sorts because they tell you that you are not an anarchist for wanting to "experiment" with slavery (not that I would expect you to make this claim, but I have seen it before) or private property (which, by the way, is an impersonal control systems of sorts), but doing otherwise would be like denying that water is wet.
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>>1027
>In a society where private property has been abolished, everyone will live rent-free somewhere.
Sure, but *where*? Nobody wants to live with randos, the only reason most people do it at all is because they have to because of… private property. Anarchism would not magically solve the problem that people don't always get along and trust (beyond a baseline of empathy and cultural values) requires familiarity. Nobody is more familiar than your family.

>By studying history they have noticed that the family, which is assumed by the unthinking to be an unchanging constant, actually changed a lot during the centuries of human society, taking on various form, some of which can hardly be called a family, and keeps changing as society does.
Has it though? Sure, there are all kinds of variations on the theme of family, but ultimately the basic idea – small groups of people live in the same space, share resources, and generally have a high degree of trust and obligation towards each other, all as a (in principle) permanent arrangement – is pretty much a cultural universal, and in the majority of placetimes that small group was mostly blood relations. *Obviously* the notion of family has evolved over time, but just like languages or technologies it's still got the same principles for the most part. Just like how a plough 5,000 years ago was very different from a modern plough, but they're both ploughs.

(part 1/2)
Replies: >>1032
(part 2/2)
>>1027
>>1031
>As a fun fact, around 80% of child sexual abuse in the USA is committed by the parents of the children. Keep this statistic in mind while you argue for the child's enslavement to their parents.
Who the fuck is arguing that? Nobody here has introduced a concept of 'family' that would not include 'found family' as it is called in many circles, and nobody here has argued that parents need to have unlimited authority over their children, or even that genetic parents have to be the ones who raise their child. If you took a kid away from its mother (good luck, lol) and raised them somehow, they'd either find a family analogue or spend their life in crushing loneliness.
Replies: >>1037
>>1032
Yes, people crave families because world is cruel and unforgiving. By necessity if u make world less cruel and unforgiving the value of family will diminish.

If tech keeps going like it has, in future individuals survivability against the enviroment (but not other humans) sharply raises, so the individual might not be as dependent on a family. Think about babies infused with nanotech that syntethizes breastmilk straight into their mouths from the molecules scavenged from the environment.

Value judgements about if this kind of future is beneficial are not for me, but those kinda futures are possible. Just one way the notion of family can dissappear.
Replies: >>1040
>>1037
>Yes, people crave families because world is cruel and unforgiving.
I think this is an unfounded assumption. There are many things people desire even in the absence of reasons to desire them – sex, for instance.
Replies: >>1042
>>1040
Why people without families get worse outcomes? Would that happen in a world where family wasnt in such a big role in survival?
Replies: >>1052
>>1042
>Would that happen in a world where family wasnt in such a big role in survival?
that is difficult to impossible to determine.
However, I know a lot of people who don't rely on their family at all any more because they became Grownups and moved to The City, and usually they're not very happy.
people can poop themselves and require no toilet paper
Anarchist aren't for a lack of government, they are against the state for it's rule is too impure for them, instead they wish to be governed by morals, the pure ruler who arbiters how things are distributed and produced or denied in case of going against it.
Replies: >>1059 >>1061
>>1058
but morals are gay
Replies: >>1060
>>1059
Hence why Anarchists are gay, in the bad sense, not the homo sense.
>>1058
Morals don't exist in a vacuum. Morals affect people, even amoral ones, regardless if you want to be "ruled" by them. So if someone wants to change the moral backround of society, how can you judge if that's their endgoal or just a side effect of messing with stuff?
Replies: >>1062
>>1061
Because they are very explicit in their denunciation of hierarchies and property about their moral charges. It's not for self-assertion but for rearrangement of submission.

Morals are imagined justifications for self-alienation in service of a larger construct that demands obedience and order for it's sustenance (society,country, etc), adhering to them is peak Greyface completely embedded in Slave Theory.
Replies: >>1063
>>1062
It has never been about all hierarchies and all property, just the ones that fuck people up. Yea, got me, not wanting to people to get fucked up is a moral statement. Still you seem to be a bit backwards, how does trying to not get fucked up submission? Like in case of practical anarchism like rent strike, how do you submit by refusing to get thrown out of your home just because landlord wanted to fuck you over?

You're fighting windmills again Don.
Replies: >>1064
>>1063
Those actions are driven by self-interest, again duped self-interest by adherence to these larger constructs that are to be replaced by more 'moral' ones that 'don't fuck you up', rather than rejecting these mechanisms for self-alienation that perpetuate submission and unwillingly lead you to reproduce submission under different banners.

If your intention is to not get fucked over, self assertion by any means, either isolated or in cooperation, is the way to go instead of simply pleading for "fairness" like a Greyface beggar on a bitches leash would.
Replies: >>1066
>Those actions are driven by self interest
Oh don't give me that essentialist bullcrap. Minds are complicated and assigning a single motivating force to anything is ridiculous.
>Being ethical is submission
How so? I don't think it's much different from being ruled by some self-interested part of the mind.
>pleading for "fairness"
I think the point of anarchism is that they're not really asking, they're demanding.
Replies: >>1067
>>1064
>If your intention is to not get fucked over, self assertion by any means, either isolated or in cooperation, is the way to go
You might be gay anarchist already.
Replies: >>1067
>>1065
>>1066
Toddler tier understanding of Anarchism.
Replies: >>1068 >>1070
>>1067
Like lost children we live our unfinished adventures.
crusty punk turf is easily acquired by the nearest set
>>1067
Well if you can give us non strawman definition you'd be sure to have yourself a real actual conversation. Have you ever had one of those?
Replies: >>1071
>>1070
Reddit tier refutations like muh logical fallacies doesn't make you right, describe when is the "strawman" made instead of throwing around buzzwords.
Replies: >>1072
>>1071
I'm asking you to explain, since you claimed to understand it so well. I just mentioned strawmans so you don't waste my time by misrepresenting or oversimplifying the subject like people often do.
Replies: >>1073
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>>1072
Shortest and simplest way to put it.On top of what is to be done.
Replies: >>1074
>>1073
>only attacc
>never protecc
Sure, makes sense. I'd even agree if stuff like mutual aid would be considered attacking the system since shit is abstract and you can threaten it by more ways than just breaking glass.
>order out of chaos
can someone explain to me why most anarchists brains are rotten with this idea? I know some oldie junkie wrote about it, but come on are """anarchists""" supposed to be pro-order now? The order is literally how the bourgeoisie calls themselves This makes no sense
read Rolland Barthes
Replies: >>1076 >>1077 >>1078
>>1075
Not only is it a dumb-ass idea, it's also heretical to Discordianism. Chaos is not the opposite of Order! It's composed of Order and Disorder.
>>1075
>can someone explain to me why most anarchists brains are rotten with this idea?
Because anarchism is a political ideology and politics is inherently greyfaced.
>>1075
Order and disorder are illusions. Reaching for different kind of order is disorderly in some sense, orderly in some sense etc. Bringing down the false order leads to a new state of things which our pattern seeking brains shall think of as the new order.
extract-Catching Up With Vermin Supreme in 2020 (Full Interview)-QZKCi1TXsNs.mp4
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A tyranarchist I can get behind.
Replies: >>1089
>>1088
Or ahead! I bet he'd follow anyone who keeps dropping peanuts from their pocket.
>>695
Yes, and the more (dis)ordered structure requires proportionally more resistance to the influences of chaos, or chance.
Why should I govern myself? Don't tell me how to live my life, Pope!
Replies: >>1993
>>782
LETTERBOX HUNTERZ
COMING UP NEXT
>>721
is he gonna be ok?
>>1978
You'd expect somebody else to do that for you instead you parasite. Governing is hard work and  if we are going to let every lowlife and peasant squiggle out of their governing duties, we got too much work on our hands to actually enjoy the benefits of power.

-John Smith, the CEO of Illuminati
Replies: >>2003
>>1993
I will hire someone to govern me.
Replies: >>2004
>>2003
congratulations, you have just invented taxation.
Replies: >>2046
>>2004
Taxation has nothing to do with a personal assistant.
Replies: >>2048
>>2046
I feel my therapist uses soft power like some kind of benevolent philosopher king to get me to do stuff. Politicians could learn lot from that.
Me, I'm an anachronist.
Replies: >>2064
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>>2051
Me? I'm on the clock.
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>Look at Stirner, look at him, the peaceful enemy of all constraint.
>For the moment, he is still drinking beer,
>Soon he will be drinking blood as though it were water.
>When others cry savagely "down with the states!"
>Stirner immediately supplements "nay, EVERY MAN SHALL BE A STATE."
if law exists
>extralegal, super legal, etc
then all are not equal under the law.
if rules exists
>example: 34
artists are not breaking laws, but might be breaking rules
>example: don't get high on your own supply of dirty tricks.

sometimes rules are less than respectable.
>example: boarding school rapist headmasters
sometimes rules are better than others
>the right to die movement has one religion based on morbid jokes.
>the right wing has the right to live movement, so they can send blackwaters to rape and pillage
>see above reasoning for the self induced solution to the warhawks lobbying
>consider that last psychonautic trip could induce regular DMT production for the "good death"
>it can be extracted from common plants
>regulation is impossible
>it destroys this planet, and that's stupid
>it shouldn't be destroyed, it should be fun
Replies: >>2341
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>>2340
based gibberish poster
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